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Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at /ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at. A list of additional resources is available at _/resources_._ If you are having thoughts of suicide, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at _1-80_ (TALK). _This episode contains a brief mention of suicidal ideation. The Aleph and Other Stories by Jorge Luis Borges When You Greet Me I Bow by Norman Fischer We talk about how Ozeki’s novels begin she hears a character speaking in her mind, how meditation can teach you to detach from own internal monologue, why Marie Kondo’s almost animist philosophy of tidying became so popular across the globe, whether objects want things, whether practicing Zen has helped her want less and, my personal favorite part, the dilemmas posed by an empty box with the words “empty box” written on it. Our conversation begins by exploring what it means to hear voices in our minds, and whether it’s really so rare. It’s a book thick with ideas but written with a deceptively light, gentle pen.

And then it’s about so much more than that: mental illnesses and materialism and consumerism and creative inspiration and information overload and the power of stories and the role of libraries and unshared mental experiences and on and on.

“The Book of Form and Emptiness” is about Benny, a teenager who starts hearing objects speak to him right after his father’s death, and it’s about his mother, Annabelle, who can’t let go of anything she owns, and can’t seem to help her son or herself. Ruth Ozeki is a Zen Buddhist priest and the author of novels including “A Tale for the Time Being,” which was shortlisted for the Booker Prize, and “The Book of Form and Emptiness,” which I read over paternity leave and loved. What happens when you really start listening to all these voices? What happens when you can’t stop hearing them? Objects have also gotten louder: through the advertisements that follow us around the web, the endless scroll of merchandise available on internet shopping sites and in the plentiful aisles of superstores. A day spent in isolation can still mean a day buffeted by the voices on social media and the news, on podcasts, in emails and text messages.

The world has gotten louder, even when we’re alone. We'll be back with new episodes next week! Today we're taking a short break and re-releasing one of our favorite episodes from 2022, a conversation with the novelist and Buddhist priest Ruth Ozeki.

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